a summary of the 9 holds of skyrim
you want me to do what
this is officially a spongebob rp blog
this is officially not a spongebob rp blog
are you ready to get
well, at least I made use of my ignore list for first time in two years
when people try to argue with you about something you clearly know more about
Joker & Harley by Saltheria
I’m sorry but this is more like what the fans want rather than what’s there. This affection the Joker ‘has’ for her is nothing more than fan fiction.
I see you’re a real authority on the subject of this relationship! Would anyone like to provide actual canon evidence for a counter-argument? Just for the funsies? I’d do it myself, but this is already my (ancient) drawing there, and I’m a bit tired.
On that point, you did get one thing right, though - this WAS a fanfic illustration.
A fanfic immediately following Gotham City Sirens #21 and #23, issues in which Harley and the Joker shared:
1) a tight hug
2) two whole kisses
3) general embraces throughout
4) shared winks, jokes, knowing smirks and working in sync
5) a whole memory sequence page including times the joker hasn’t been a 100% asshole;
But what do I, a simple fan, know. It’s all just wishful thinking and manipulation.
Yep if it wasn’t way of The Joker programming Harley through the power of human emotion I would embrace this but it kinda feels wrong looking at this knowing what the Joker is like :(
I understand the issue with seeing Joker as being anything but a manipulative bag of dicks, I do; but using that term like Harley’s some very willing computer that only needs a few well-coded commands to do whatever’s asked of her is overdoing it. Give her some credit. She isn’t some puppet, she isn’t a machine that can be ‘programmed’ to his every whim. She’s strong-willed and free-spirited, and, as strange as it may seem, staying with him is her choice. Yes, she’s infatuated and loyal almost to a fault, so the choice probably isn’t the best one. But it’s what she wants to do. Before the horror that is New52 happened, her turning to life of crime has been a choice, too, though the Joker was certainly a trigger.
Moreover, she is a certified psychiatrist (details of how she got her degree notwithstanding), and she knows EXACTLY what emotional manipulation is. In fact, should you be interested enough to look at some well-written canon stuff with the two, you’ll see she, too, has a deal of control over him through using human emotion. No, I’m not kidding. She has. /) uwu (\
If you choose to see his shows of affection in canon as just ways to keep her on his side, and not at all genuine, that’s your choice I guess, but it doesn’t make it a fact.
In fact, since we’re on the subject of manipulating human emotions, it’s interesting how everyone collectively forgets that Poison Ivy is no better in that department. Somehow, the affection SHE shows for Harley is thought only as genuine, despite her long history of being a manipulative misanthrope only ever using people as means to an end and needing nothing but her plants.
In fact, a quote by Harley from the very same series I mentioned above, and that frequents the tag now and then does, in fact, address Poison Ivy rather than Joker:
"I know what you really think of me. You think I’m just a doll. A doll that’s pink and light. A doll you can arrange any way you like. You’re wrong. Very wrong. What you think of me is only a ghost of time. I am dangerous. And I will show you just how dark I can be."
It’s actually interesting how, at the basis of the argument that Harley is a brainwashed victim of emotional manipulation, all it usually does is take away her own agenda and reduce her character to be nothing more than a gullible bimbo. Saying she’s “programmed” by the Joker does that. So do all the references to her being a ‘doormat’, ignoring her actually quite feisty nature and the gradual development of both characters and their relationship from a boss/hench dynamic to more equal partners in crime. If that’s how you choose to interpret it, go ahead; but it doesn’t make it the truth. Nor does it make other interpretations just “fanfiction”.
All in all, I highly recommend reading up some more on their dynamic and both characters in general (not just going from very first episodes of BTAS or canon writing done by people who don’t get it either) before making concrete conclusions, let alone judging the fans for getting it wrong. :)
No Man’s Land is a good start.
You you’re saying that the people who created the character and know her nature better than any other person on the planet, you are saying they’re wrong about something they’re clearly not?
You haven’t actually given me any relevant information. It’s like when you think you know a friend, but you’ve been wanting your friend to be something for so long that once you pull one’s head from the ground you realise that your interpretation is only what you want someone to be and not who they are.
I didn’t bash the character Herley once. If you think most people are glassing over Harley and Ivy well that’s because most people don’t talk about it in the first place and you just bring that up out of the blue try try and prove well you haven’t even made your point clear love you really need to sit this one out :’)
Yes Harley is a capable strong woman she even has her own comic and has been in the suicide squad and almost got over the joker. Have you ever been in love with someone so much you have actually walked miles in minus temperatures in a snow blizzard just to say hi? Because that is how devoted Harley is to Joker and that’s on a bad day. She has been manipulated to become a tool of the Joker’s larger vision of the world and his plans for it. I don’t think Harley is nothing but a tool. The Joker does, yes he is possessive over that tool and yes sometimes he slips into his own lies to the stage that he gets feelings for Harley but if you think his feelings are ones of unconditional love then you are fuck stupid. The best example of this is when The Joker locks up Harley in a room full of the decapitated mutilated ex’s basically the other Harley’s he has used.
If Harley is a character you wanna write about and make her strong, make her strong. Make her someone that can hold herself and that doesn’t need to need anyone but herself and don’t use the Harley Joker thing as a terrible excuse for bad abusive real life relationships and call it cute.
And before you say the Joker is sweet somewhere inside. He is a rapist. Read The Killing Joke :) Alan Moore whom wrote this actually lives like 20 miles away from so if I ever see him in my life and travels I’ll ask him what he thinks the joker is :P
"You you’re saying that the people who created the character and know her nature better than any other person on the planet, you are saying they’re wrong about something they’re clearly not?"
You mean like Paul Dini, the writer that created Harley and kickstarted their relationship and, while initially indeed planning it as a reflection of toxic relationships, evolved it far beyond what it was born as? The Paul Dini, who stated that “he loves her as much as he can, he loves her in his own way” about Joker’s affection for Harley?
Maybe Arleen Sorkin, the original voice actor and inspiration for Harley, who described the reason of her staying with him as “the whole world has seen the Joker laugh, only Harley has ever seen him cry”?
Maybe Mark Hamill himself who, and not to misquote here, talked about how Joker is learning those human parts of himself that are capable of giving love and affection through Harley, how she affected him on a level he never expected?
Again, returning to Paul Dini and his introduction of Harley into the main comic series. You are aware, of course, that the reason he ever tried to kill her in the Batman: Harley Quinn comic at time of No Man’s Land is because he began to feel actual affection for her, began to have feelings he didn’t like and was afraid of, and thought that getting rid of her would stop them? Not the healthiest way to go about it, mind you, but he’s not exactly right in the head. You cannot just ignore that part of canon, even if you do try to interpret it as him lying to her despite having literally no reason to do so - not when he thought she would die anyway, not when no one else but her was listening, not when he assumed she’d take his words to her grave.
Again, I’m not saying their relationship is healthy. By any stretch. It IS the Joker and Harley we’re talking about here. A pair of fictional, homicidal super-villains with a plethora of issues.
It is hardly the same as consistently claiming that he only sees her as his pawn, as that statement can be easily disproven by canon material that you seem personally unfamiliar with.
And I would happily provide said material but, to be honest, I’ve lost my interest in this discussion. I already lost it the second you decided to bring up New52 material to me like it is the epitome of good, accurate, in-character writing for either of those characters (it really, really isn’t, and I do believe I specifically expressed my dislike for it already), so sure, stick to your opinion. I’m not going to convince you otherwise, such was never the intention; I just generally get irked at comments on my drawings that clearly try to provoke an argument. That is beside the point.
Evidently, you are more content with patronizingly cooing at me like I’m a delusional child who doesn’t know better than to gush over toxic relationships and play make-believe with fictional characters, unable to see the real truth that you obviously can. Or, at least, something along these lines. What you are doing at this point is a personal attack rather than exchanging facts, which is unsurprising; I’m yet to have an argument about these characters with a person possessing the aptitude of having a discussion without resorting to insults and the “my opinion is the only one right here” attitude.
I don’t believe I’ve been as disrespectful to you as you have been to me, despite the snarky tone I tend to adopt after having the same argument for good 3+ years and always reaching a dead end with the headstrong fans who like arguing for the sake of arguing and feeling good about their “victory” after the other party gets tired of dealing with them.
"…It’s like when you think you know a friend, but you’ve been wanting your friend to be something for so long that once you pull one’s head from the ground you realise that your interpretation is only what you want someone to be and not who they are."
"you haven’t even made your point clear love you really need to sit this one out :’)"
"but if you think his feelings are ones of unconditional love then you are fuck stupid"
See, this kind of patronizing attitude is exactly why the other party would get tired. I dearly hope this is not how you plan to handle all your debates in the future. Opinion does not a fact make.
I don’t even know where the whole ‘excuse abusive relationships’ came from, I never said anything of this nature; but that’s nothing new either.
All in all, this could be an interesting exchange of opposing opinions, but I have no interest nor patience in dealing with your holier-than-thou attitude. Consider my jimmies sufficiently rustled and this discussion over. Good day.
P.S. Please, do reach Alan Moore and ask him about something implications of which he has disproved ages ago. Your argument is certainly made more valid by the fact that he lives in close proximity.
i don’t know what im doing